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Saturday, November 03, 2007

Debating the one state solution

I've been debating, if you can call it that, some Israelis and a Palestinian about my firmly held belief in a one state solution

One of the Israelis has already called me an idiot and all Arabs monkeys. I highly recommend skipping his replies and reading Lirun's and Nizo's.

UPDATE: I've been locked out of the thread. So much for for an honest and respectable exchange of ideas. The exchanges I've had with Israelis in the blogosphere have left me more depressed than anything else.

4 comments:

Lirun said...

dude.. what a drama queen.. you werent locked out of the thread - it was closed.. as much for your comments as for nobody's..

the post was about the right of return and yet all you could do was preach your dogma on a one state solution..

as you do every single time you comment about anything..

think south park for a moment and lets create a skit:

"oh hi seanny how are you?"

"oh id be better if there was a one state solution in israstine.."

"yeah but seanny how are you feeling mate.. remember my question?"

"what question?!!? there is no question? you are racist!!! arabs and jews are one!! are you saying i cant follow your questions?? you are antidemocratic and denying me my right to diverge from every topic you raise - including my well being.. which mind you would be soo much better if there was a one state solution in israstine.."

"seanny buddy.. chum.. im trying to talk to you.. if you wont have the discussion there is no point.."

"lirun you're a dangerous surfy loser who hides behind sneaky messages.. whateverrrrrrr"

quite a discussion mate..

would have been fascinated to hear your thoughts on the relevance of the right of return with respect as part of a discussion.. really digging down into the essence.. but instead you threw accusations left right and centre.. ignored all attempts to collate responses to your full spectrum sling and came back with more..

my blog wasnt created for that..

nizo didnt like my handling of the situation and has now left the blog..

and i think im done for a while..

the deliberation now is whether to leave it online or delete it entirely..

cant decide..

your quite an inspiration man.. hope you dont have aspirations in diplomacy..

:)

take care

wish you well

sean said...

First things first: concerning drama, I'm not quite sure if you're supposed to be the pot or the kettle here, Lirun. Regardless, I can say that time and time again, the responses I get from you and other ostensibly peace-minded Israelis (putting aside entirely the outright racist rhetoric from your right-wing compatriots) have completely depressed me.

A good friend of mine here often does conflict resolution training sessions with Israeli NGO types, and the stories he brings back are very similar to my experiences, which are not promising.

In any case, I think if you'll look back at my comments, you'll see that I never once called you anything, much less "sneaky" or a "loser." I did, however, describe you as "well-meaning," even if I do find the idea of making an Arab's citizenship in Israel contingent on pledging allegiance to a Jewish state repugnant and racist. (This has nothing to do with treason, and is not nor should be practiced in any democratic nation worthy of that designation.) Again, I think you'll see that in that thread, if anyone was being called names, it was me: Arab monkey and idiot (times two) to quote your charming compatriots. And again, not once did you tell any Israelis on your blog that you didn't want racial slurs thrown around.

Next, your comment here implies that my comments were non sequiturs, although they were clearly about the right of return. If you'll go back and read my first comment, you'll see that I wrote the following:

the binational state would keep both laws of return, ensuring that all Palestinian refugees could come back and/or be compensated and that all persecuted Jews could find a home in Israel/Palestine.

Honestly, I don't blame Nizo for not appreciating how you handled the conversation. I don't appreciate it either, and that's why I told you that I wouldn't be reading your blog anymore.

Finally, whether you decide to take your blog down or not is up to you -- and frankly of little concern to me, because, like I said, I'm done with it. However, if you like writing it, it'd be unfortunate to stop doing so because of a difference of opinion. But that's obviously your call.

Anonymous said...

Israeli NGOs, like the Israeli state, often avoid certain human rights issues due to a common understanding about "Iraeliness". Consequently, Lirun and his cohorts will simply not touch or just skirt issues like the rights of Palestinian Refugees (Law of Return, hint hint), and they thereby severely limit the possibilities for activism in Israel.

Despite Lirun's disposition as a "peace loving" Israeli, he can't fathom how his very logic and perceptions are no different than Israeli state interests, despite his claims otherwise.

In any case, so long as there are Israelis pushing to redefine Israel by highlighting its democratic as opposed to its Jewish character, then there's a least a bit of hope for true reconciliation and peace.

Yet, when peace-pushing Israelis like Lirun think that demanding Palestinian refugees to pledge service to Israel as a qualification for citizenship is a necessary good thing, then we know how depressingly existential the entire situation is..

-km

NIZ said...

I was reading Lirun's posts...
People who surf together
can live together my ass!! This guy is amazing...he would love to surf
with them, but when it comes to real concessions the right and the
left meet in Israel.

LaoTzu said if he
would give an advice to leaders, he would say (know when to stop!
Don't be with out grace...know that enough is enough...there will
always be enough!!) But, I guess the Israelis have to experience
that. Their dependence on brutal force will eventually destroy the
very essence of their society. A system based on racial discrimination
will eventually crumble. I was thinking that even if the Israelis were
able to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian territories, this will not
solve the bigger problem with Arab and Muslim region. This region
might be subjugated today, but they are still 1 billion people. Israel
cannot hold itself forever...a decision on a population level has to
be made "Do we want to live here or not?" If they want to live here,
then they have to be part of this region, not just a tool for foreign
interference and power. It's the complete tragic irony! The jews who
lived under Islamic law where better off than that of Europe (Jews
were discriminated against but their situation was better than
christians here and was better than their situation in Europe). Jewish
European intellectuals used to look at Islamic rule as a haven in
comparison with European rule...it's these same people who got
discriminated against in Europe for being Semites come back to oppress
their brethren as European colonists. Isn't it the absurd result of
5000 year of diaspora. It's as if the Israelis haven't got to terms
with their identity and roots as being Semite!
As for the palestinians, they are learning their lessons
silently...and like the jews after the holocaust came to understand
that only force and power (be it financial or military) is the
guarantee against complete annihilation and that only their fists will
guarantee them a place under the sun. So it's violence that counts
eventually and not UN resolutions or international tribunals.
As soon as Israel comes to understand, that the un-educated peasants
whom they kicked in 1948 are not as fools as they think and are like
them humans who have their dreams and rights, will it be able to move
forward and establish it self as a democratic state. As for the time
being, the wrong doings and systematic violence being exerted on
palestinians in this system will only complicate the situation further
more...and the memory of these people will haunt -not just the Israeli
society- but that of the Jewish consciousness for years to come!!!
Furthermore, if they think the Arabs will forget, they are dreaming,
because we all know it's not happening...the racist perspective that
Arabs understand force, will eventually fulfill itself where by the
Arabs losing hope in a peaceful compromise and having nothing to
lose more...will have every reason to fight!!
In both cases, I think this racist arrogant Israeli perspective that
refuses just resolution will lead either to an ethnic cleansing of
Palestinians or another human disaster which is the annihilation of
Israel (fulfilling their fear). While they are in power now, they
think that peace is not in their interest because Arabs will get what
they give them...but it's severely short sighted. Time will judge!

Saturday, November 03, 2007

Debating the one state solution

I've been debating, if you can call it that, some Israelis and a Palestinian about my firmly held belief in a one state solution

One of the Israelis has already called me an idiot and all Arabs monkeys. I highly recommend skipping his replies and reading Lirun's and Nizo's.

UPDATE: I've been locked out of the thread. So much for for an honest and respectable exchange of ideas. The exchanges I've had with Israelis in the blogosphere have left me more depressed than anything else.

4 comments:

Lirun said...

dude.. what a drama queen.. you werent locked out of the thread - it was closed.. as much for your comments as for nobody's..

the post was about the right of return and yet all you could do was preach your dogma on a one state solution..

as you do every single time you comment about anything..

think south park for a moment and lets create a skit:

"oh hi seanny how are you?"

"oh id be better if there was a one state solution in israstine.."

"yeah but seanny how are you feeling mate.. remember my question?"

"what question?!!? there is no question? you are racist!!! arabs and jews are one!! are you saying i cant follow your questions?? you are antidemocratic and denying me my right to diverge from every topic you raise - including my well being.. which mind you would be soo much better if there was a one state solution in israstine.."

"seanny buddy.. chum.. im trying to talk to you.. if you wont have the discussion there is no point.."

"lirun you're a dangerous surfy loser who hides behind sneaky messages.. whateverrrrrrr"

quite a discussion mate..

would have been fascinated to hear your thoughts on the relevance of the right of return with respect as part of a discussion.. really digging down into the essence.. but instead you threw accusations left right and centre.. ignored all attempts to collate responses to your full spectrum sling and came back with more..

my blog wasnt created for that..

nizo didnt like my handling of the situation and has now left the blog..

and i think im done for a while..

the deliberation now is whether to leave it online or delete it entirely..

cant decide..

your quite an inspiration man.. hope you dont have aspirations in diplomacy..

:)

take care

wish you well

sean said...

First things first: concerning drama, I'm not quite sure if you're supposed to be the pot or the kettle here, Lirun. Regardless, I can say that time and time again, the responses I get from you and other ostensibly peace-minded Israelis (putting aside entirely the outright racist rhetoric from your right-wing compatriots) have completely depressed me.

A good friend of mine here often does conflict resolution training sessions with Israeli NGO types, and the stories he brings back are very similar to my experiences, which are not promising.

In any case, I think if you'll look back at my comments, you'll see that I never once called you anything, much less "sneaky" or a "loser." I did, however, describe you as "well-meaning," even if I do find the idea of making an Arab's citizenship in Israel contingent on pledging allegiance to a Jewish state repugnant and racist. (This has nothing to do with treason, and is not nor should be practiced in any democratic nation worthy of that designation.) Again, I think you'll see that in that thread, if anyone was being called names, it was me: Arab monkey and idiot (times two) to quote your charming compatriots. And again, not once did you tell any Israelis on your blog that you didn't want racial slurs thrown around.

Next, your comment here implies that my comments were non sequiturs, although they were clearly about the right of return. If you'll go back and read my first comment, you'll see that I wrote the following:

the binational state would keep both laws of return, ensuring that all Palestinian refugees could come back and/or be compensated and that all persecuted Jews could find a home in Israel/Palestine.

Honestly, I don't blame Nizo for not appreciating how you handled the conversation. I don't appreciate it either, and that's why I told you that I wouldn't be reading your blog anymore.

Finally, whether you decide to take your blog down or not is up to you -- and frankly of little concern to me, because, like I said, I'm done with it. However, if you like writing it, it'd be unfortunate to stop doing so because of a difference of opinion. But that's obviously your call.

Anonymous said...

Israeli NGOs, like the Israeli state, often avoid certain human rights issues due to a common understanding about "Iraeliness". Consequently, Lirun and his cohorts will simply not touch or just skirt issues like the rights of Palestinian Refugees (Law of Return, hint hint), and they thereby severely limit the possibilities for activism in Israel.

Despite Lirun's disposition as a "peace loving" Israeli, he can't fathom how his very logic and perceptions are no different than Israeli state interests, despite his claims otherwise.

In any case, so long as there are Israelis pushing to redefine Israel by highlighting its democratic as opposed to its Jewish character, then there's a least a bit of hope for true reconciliation and peace.

Yet, when peace-pushing Israelis like Lirun think that demanding Palestinian refugees to pledge service to Israel as a qualification for citizenship is a necessary good thing, then we know how depressingly existential the entire situation is..

-km

NIZ said...

I was reading Lirun's posts...
People who surf together
can live together my ass!! This guy is amazing...he would love to surf
with them, but when it comes to real concessions the right and the
left meet in Israel.

LaoTzu said if he
would give an advice to leaders, he would say (know when to stop!
Don't be with out grace...know that enough is enough...there will
always be enough!!) But, I guess the Israelis have to experience
that. Their dependence on brutal force will eventually destroy the
very essence of their society. A system based on racial discrimination
will eventually crumble. I was thinking that even if the Israelis were
able to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian territories, this will not
solve the bigger problem with Arab and Muslim region. This region
might be subjugated today, but they are still 1 billion people. Israel
cannot hold itself forever...a decision on a population level has to
be made "Do we want to live here or not?" If they want to live here,
then they have to be part of this region, not just a tool for foreign
interference and power. It's the complete tragic irony! The jews who
lived under Islamic law where better off than that of Europe (Jews
were discriminated against but their situation was better than
christians here and was better than their situation in Europe). Jewish
European intellectuals used to look at Islamic rule as a haven in
comparison with European rule...it's these same people who got
discriminated against in Europe for being Semites come back to oppress
their brethren as European colonists. Isn't it the absurd result of
5000 year of diaspora. It's as if the Israelis haven't got to terms
with their identity and roots as being Semite!
As for the palestinians, they are learning their lessons
silently...and like the jews after the holocaust came to understand
that only force and power (be it financial or military) is the
guarantee against complete annihilation and that only their fists will
guarantee them a place under the sun. So it's violence that counts
eventually and not UN resolutions or international tribunals.
As soon as Israel comes to understand, that the un-educated peasants
whom they kicked in 1948 are not as fools as they think and are like
them humans who have their dreams and rights, will it be able to move
forward and establish it self as a democratic state. As for the time
being, the wrong doings and systematic violence being exerted on
palestinians in this system will only complicate the situation further
more...and the memory of these people will haunt -not just the Israeli
society- but that of the Jewish consciousness for years to come!!!
Furthermore, if they think the Arabs will forget, they are dreaming,
because we all know it's not happening...the racist perspective that
Arabs understand force, will eventually fulfill itself where by the
Arabs losing hope in a peaceful compromise and having nothing to
lose more...will have every reason to fight!!
In both cases, I think this racist arrogant Israeli perspective that
refuses just resolution will lead either to an ethnic cleansing of
Palestinians or another human disaster which is the annihilation of
Israel (fulfilling their fear). While they are in power now, they
think that peace is not in their interest because Arabs will get what
they give them...but it's severely short sighted. Time will judge!

Saturday, November 03, 2007

Debating the one state solution

I've been debating, if you can call it that, some Israelis and a Palestinian about my firmly held belief in a one state solution

One of the Israelis has already called me an idiot and all Arabs monkeys. I highly recommend skipping his replies and reading Lirun's and Nizo's.

UPDATE: I've been locked out of the thread. So much for for an honest and respectable exchange of ideas. The exchanges I've had with Israelis in the blogosphere have left me more depressed than anything else.

4 comments:

Lirun said...

dude.. what a drama queen.. you werent locked out of the thread - it was closed.. as much for your comments as for nobody's..

the post was about the right of return and yet all you could do was preach your dogma on a one state solution..

as you do every single time you comment about anything..

think south park for a moment and lets create a skit:

"oh hi seanny how are you?"

"oh id be better if there was a one state solution in israstine.."

"yeah but seanny how are you feeling mate.. remember my question?"

"what question?!!? there is no question? you are racist!!! arabs and jews are one!! are you saying i cant follow your questions?? you are antidemocratic and denying me my right to diverge from every topic you raise - including my well being.. which mind you would be soo much better if there was a one state solution in israstine.."

"seanny buddy.. chum.. im trying to talk to you.. if you wont have the discussion there is no point.."

"lirun you're a dangerous surfy loser who hides behind sneaky messages.. whateverrrrrrr"

quite a discussion mate..

would have been fascinated to hear your thoughts on the relevance of the right of return with respect as part of a discussion.. really digging down into the essence.. but instead you threw accusations left right and centre.. ignored all attempts to collate responses to your full spectrum sling and came back with more..

my blog wasnt created for that..

nizo didnt like my handling of the situation and has now left the blog..

and i think im done for a while..

the deliberation now is whether to leave it online or delete it entirely..

cant decide..

your quite an inspiration man.. hope you dont have aspirations in diplomacy..

:)

take care

wish you well

sean said...

First things first: concerning drama, I'm not quite sure if you're supposed to be the pot or the kettle here, Lirun. Regardless, I can say that time and time again, the responses I get from you and other ostensibly peace-minded Israelis (putting aside entirely the outright racist rhetoric from your right-wing compatriots) have completely depressed me.

A good friend of mine here often does conflict resolution training sessions with Israeli NGO types, and the stories he brings back are very similar to my experiences, which are not promising.

In any case, I think if you'll look back at my comments, you'll see that I never once called you anything, much less "sneaky" or a "loser." I did, however, describe you as "well-meaning," even if I do find the idea of making an Arab's citizenship in Israel contingent on pledging allegiance to a Jewish state repugnant and racist. (This has nothing to do with treason, and is not nor should be practiced in any democratic nation worthy of that designation.) Again, I think you'll see that in that thread, if anyone was being called names, it was me: Arab monkey and idiot (times two) to quote your charming compatriots. And again, not once did you tell any Israelis on your blog that you didn't want racial slurs thrown around.

Next, your comment here implies that my comments were non sequiturs, although they were clearly about the right of return. If you'll go back and read my first comment, you'll see that I wrote the following:

the binational state would keep both laws of return, ensuring that all Palestinian refugees could come back and/or be compensated and that all persecuted Jews could find a home in Israel/Palestine.

Honestly, I don't blame Nizo for not appreciating how you handled the conversation. I don't appreciate it either, and that's why I told you that I wouldn't be reading your blog anymore.

Finally, whether you decide to take your blog down or not is up to you -- and frankly of little concern to me, because, like I said, I'm done with it. However, if you like writing it, it'd be unfortunate to stop doing so because of a difference of opinion. But that's obviously your call.

Anonymous said...

Israeli NGOs, like the Israeli state, often avoid certain human rights issues due to a common understanding about "Iraeliness". Consequently, Lirun and his cohorts will simply not touch or just skirt issues like the rights of Palestinian Refugees (Law of Return, hint hint), and they thereby severely limit the possibilities for activism in Israel.

Despite Lirun's disposition as a "peace loving" Israeli, he can't fathom how his very logic and perceptions are no different than Israeli state interests, despite his claims otherwise.

In any case, so long as there are Israelis pushing to redefine Israel by highlighting its democratic as opposed to its Jewish character, then there's a least a bit of hope for true reconciliation and peace.

Yet, when peace-pushing Israelis like Lirun think that demanding Palestinian refugees to pledge service to Israel as a qualification for citizenship is a necessary good thing, then we know how depressingly existential the entire situation is..

-km

NIZ said...

I was reading Lirun's posts...
People who surf together
can live together my ass!! This guy is amazing...he would love to surf
with them, but when it comes to real concessions the right and the
left meet in Israel.

LaoTzu said if he
would give an advice to leaders, he would say (know when to stop!
Don't be with out grace...know that enough is enough...there will
always be enough!!) But, I guess the Israelis have to experience
that. Their dependence on brutal force will eventually destroy the
very essence of their society. A system based on racial discrimination
will eventually crumble. I was thinking that even if the Israelis were
able to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian territories, this will not
solve the bigger problem with Arab and Muslim region. This region
might be subjugated today, but they are still 1 billion people. Israel
cannot hold itself forever...a decision on a population level has to
be made "Do we want to live here or not?" If they want to live here,
then they have to be part of this region, not just a tool for foreign
interference and power. It's the complete tragic irony! The jews who
lived under Islamic law where better off than that of Europe (Jews
were discriminated against but their situation was better than
christians here and was better than their situation in Europe). Jewish
European intellectuals used to look at Islamic rule as a haven in
comparison with European rule...it's these same people who got
discriminated against in Europe for being Semites come back to oppress
their brethren as European colonists. Isn't it the absurd result of
5000 year of diaspora. It's as if the Israelis haven't got to terms
with their identity and roots as being Semite!
As for the palestinians, they are learning their lessons
silently...and like the jews after the holocaust came to understand
that only force and power (be it financial or military) is the
guarantee against complete annihilation and that only their fists will
guarantee them a place under the sun. So it's violence that counts
eventually and not UN resolutions or international tribunals.
As soon as Israel comes to understand, that the un-educated peasants
whom they kicked in 1948 are not as fools as they think and are like
them humans who have their dreams and rights, will it be able to move
forward and establish it self as a democratic state. As for the time
being, the wrong doings and systematic violence being exerted on
palestinians in this system will only complicate the situation further
more...and the memory of these people will haunt -not just the Israeli
society- but that of the Jewish consciousness for years to come!!!
Furthermore, if they think the Arabs will forget, they are dreaming,
because we all know it's not happening...the racist perspective that
Arabs understand force, will eventually fulfill itself where by the
Arabs losing hope in a peaceful compromise and having nothing to
lose more...will have every reason to fight!!
In both cases, I think this racist arrogant Israeli perspective that
refuses just resolution will lead either to an ethnic cleansing of
Palestinians or another human disaster which is the annihilation of
Israel (fulfilling their fear). While they are in power now, they
think that peace is not in their interest because Arabs will get what
they give them...but it's severely short sighted. Time will judge!

Saturday, November 03, 2007

Debating the one state solution

I've been debating, if you can call it that, some Israelis and a Palestinian about my firmly held belief in a one state solution

One of the Israelis has already called me an idiot and all Arabs monkeys. I highly recommend skipping his replies and reading Lirun's and Nizo's.

UPDATE: I've been locked out of the thread. So much for for an honest and respectable exchange of ideas. The exchanges I've had with Israelis in the blogosphere have left me more depressed than anything else.

4 comments:

Lirun said...

dude.. what a drama queen.. you werent locked out of the thread - it was closed.. as much for your comments as for nobody's..

the post was about the right of return and yet all you could do was preach your dogma on a one state solution..

as you do every single time you comment about anything..

think south park for a moment and lets create a skit:

"oh hi seanny how are you?"

"oh id be better if there was a one state solution in israstine.."

"yeah but seanny how are you feeling mate.. remember my question?"

"what question?!!? there is no question? you are racist!!! arabs and jews are one!! are you saying i cant follow your questions?? you are antidemocratic and denying me my right to diverge from every topic you raise - including my well being.. which mind you would be soo much better if there was a one state solution in israstine.."

"seanny buddy.. chum.. im trying to talk to you.. if you wont have the discussion there is no point.."

"lirun you're a dangerous surfy loser who hides behind sneaky messages.. whateverrrrrrr"

quite a discussion mate..

would have been fascinated to hear your thoughts on the relevance of the right of return with respect as part of a discussion.. really digging down into the essence.. but instead you threw accusations left right and centre.. ignored all attempts to collate responses to your full spectrum sling and came back with more..

my blog wasnt created for that..

nizo didnt like my handling of the situation and has now left the blog..

and i think im done for a while..

the deliberation now is whether to leave it online or delete it entirely..

cant decide..

your quite an inspiration man.. hope you dont have aspirations in diplomacy..

:)

take care

wish you well

sean said...

First things first: concerning drama, I'm not quite sure if you're supposed to be the pot or the kettle here, Lirun. Regardless, I can say that time and time again, the responses I get from you and other ostensibly peace-minded Israelis (putting aside entirely the outright racist rhetoric from your right-wing compatriots) have completely depressed me.

A good friend of mine here often does conflict resolution training sessions with Israeli NGO types, and the stories he brings back are very similar to my experiences, which are not promising.

In any case, I think if you'll look back at my comments, you'll see that I never once called you anything, much less "sneaky" or a "loser." I did, however, describe you as "well-meaning," even if I do find the idea of making an Arab's citizenship in Israel contingent on pledging allegiance to a Jewish state repugnant and racist. (This has nothing to do with treason, and is not nor should be practiced in any democratic nation worthy of that designation.) Again, I think you'll see that in that thread, if anyone was being called names, it was me: Arab monkey and idiot (times two) to quote your charming compatriots. And again, not once did you tell any Israelis on your blog that you didn't want racial slurs thrown around.

Next, your comment here implies that my comments were non sequiturs, although they were clearly about the right of return. If you'll go back and read my first comment, you'll see that I wrote the following:

the binational state would keep both laws of return, ensuring that all Palestinian refugees could come back and/or be compensated and that all persecuted Jews could find a home in Israel/Palestine.

Honestly, I don't blame Nizo for not appreciating how you handled the conversation. I don't appreciate it either, and that's why I told you that I wouldn't be reading your blog anymore.

Finally, whether you decide to take your blog down or not is up to you -- and frankly of little concern to me, because, like I said, I'm done with it. However, if you like writing it, it'd be unfortunate to stop doing so because of a difference of opinion. But that's obviously your call.

Anonymous said...

Israeli NGOs, like the Israeli state, often avoid certain human rights issues due to a common understanding about "Iraeliness". Consequently, Lirun and his cohorts will simply not touch or just skirt issues like the rights of Palestinian Refugees (Law of Return, hint hint), and they thereby severely limit the possibilities for activism in Israel.

Despite Lirun's disposition as a "peace loving" Israeli, he can't fathom how his very logic and perceptions are no different than Israeli state interests, despite his claims otherwise.

In any case, so long as there are Israelis pushing to redefine Israel by highlighting its democratic as opposed to its Jewish character, then there's a least a bit of hope for true reconciliation and peace.

Yet, when peace-pushing Israelis like Lirun think that demanding Palestinian refugees to pledge service to Israel as a qualification for citizenship is a necessary good thing, then we know how depressingly existential the entire situation is..

-km

NIZ said...

I was reading Lirun's posts...
People who surf together
can live together my ass!! This guy is amazing...he would love to surf
with them, but when it comes to real concessions the right and the
left meet in Israel.

LaoTzu said if he
would give an advice to leaders, he would say (know when to stop!
Don't be with out grace...know that enough is enough...there will
always be enough!!) But, I guess the Israelis have to experience
that. Their dependence on brutal force will eventually destroy the
very essence of their society. A system based on racial discrimination
will eventually crumble. I was thinking that even if the Israelis were
able to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian territories, this will not
solve the bigger problem with Arab and Muslim region. This region
might be subjugated today, but they are still 1 billion people. Israel
cannot hold itself forever...a decision on a population level has to
be made "Do we want to live here or not?" If they want to live here,
then they have to be part of this region, not just a tool for foreign
interference and power. It's the complete tragic irony! The jews who
lived under Islamic law where better off than that of Europe (Jews
were discriminated against but their situation was better than
christians here and was better than their situation in Europe). Jewish
European intellectuals used to look at Islamic rule as a haven in
comparison with European rule...it's these same people who got
discriminated against in Europe for being Semites come back to oppress
their brethren as European colonists. Isn't it the absurd result of
5000 year of diaspora. It's as if the Israelis haven't got to terms
with their identity and roots as being Semite!
As for the palestinians, they are learning their lessons
silently...and like the jews after the holocaust came to understand
that only force and power (be it financial or military) is the
guarantee against complete annihilation and that only their fists will
guarantee them a place under the sun. So it's violence that counts
eventually and not UN resolutions or international tribunals.
As soon as Israel comes to understand, that the un-educated peasants
whom they kicked in 1948 are not as fools as they think and are like
them humans who have their dreams and rights, will it be able to move
forward and establish it self as a democratic state. As for the time
being, the wrong doings and systematic violence being exerted on
palestinians in this system will only complicate the situation further
more...and the memory of these people will haunt -not just the Israeli
society- but that of the Jewish consciousness for years to come!!!
Furthermore, if they think the Arabs will forget, they are dreaming,
because we all know it's not happening...the racist perspective that
Arabs understand force, will eventually fulfill itself where by the
Arabs losing hope in a peaceful compromise and having nothing to
lose more...will have every reason to fight!!
In both cases, I think this racist arrogant Israeli perspective that
refuses just resolution will lead either to an ethnic cleansing of
Palestinians or another human disaster which is the annihilation of
Israel (fulfilling their fear). While they are in power now, they
think that peace is not in their interest because Arabs will get what
they give them...but it's severely short sighted. Time will judge!

Saturday, November 03, 2007

Debating the one state solution

I've been debating, if you can call it that, some Israelis and a Palestinian about my firmly held belief in a one state solution

One of the Israelis has already called me an idiot and all Arabs monkeys. I highly recommend skipping his replies and reading Lirun's and Nizo's.

UPDATE: I've been locked out of the thread. So much for for an honest and respectable exchange of ideas. The exchanges I've had with Israelis in the blogosphere have left me more depressed than anything else.

4 comments:

Lirun said...

dude.. what a drama queen.. you werent locked out of the thread - it was closed.. as much for your comments as for nobody's..

the post was about the right of return and yet all you could do was preach your dogma on a one state solution..

as you do every single time you comment about anything..

think south park for a moment and lets create a skit:

"oh hi seanny how are you?"

"oh id be better if there was a one state solution in israstine.."

"yeah but seanny how are you feeling mate.. remember my question?"

"what question?!!? there is no question? you are racist!!! arabs and jews are one!! are you saying i cant follow your questions?? you are antidemocratic and denying me my right to diverge from every topic you raise - including my well being.. which mind you would be soo much better if there was a one state solution in israstine.."

"seanny buddy.. chum.. im trying to talk to you.. if you wont have the discussion there is no point.."

"lirun you're a dangerous surfy loser who hides behind sneaky messages.. whateverrrrrrr"

quite a discussion mate..

would have been fascinated to hear your thoughts on the relevance of the right of return with respect as part of a discussion.. really digging down into the essence.. but instead you threw accusations left right and centre.. ignored all attempts to collate responses to your full spectrum sling and came back with more..

my blog wasnt created for that..

nizo didnt like my handling of the situation and has now left the blog..

and i think im done for a while..

the deliberation now is whether to leave it online or delete it entirely..

cant decide..

your quite an inspiration man.. hope you dont have aspirations in diplomacy..

:)

take care

wish you well

sean said...

First things first: concerning drama, I'm not quite sure if you're supposed to be the pot or the kettle here, Lirun. Regardless, I can say that time and time again, the responses I get from you and other ostensibly peace-minded Israelis (putting aside entirely the outright racist rhetoric from your right-wing compatriots) have completely depressed me.

A good friend of mine here often does conflict resolution training sessions with Israeli NGO types, and the stories he brings back are very similar to my experiences, which are not promising.

In any case, I think if you'll look back at my comments, you'll see that I never once called you anything, much less "sneaky" or a "loser." I did, however, describe you as "well-meaning," even if I do find the idea of making an Arab's citizenship in Israel contingent on pledging allegiance to a Jewish state repugnant and racist. (This has nothing to do with treason, and is not nor should be practiced in any democratic nation worthy of that designation.) Again, I think you'll see that in that thread, if anyone was being called names, it was me: Arab monkey and idiot (times two) to quote your charming compatriots. And again, not once did you tell any Israelis on your blog that you didn't want racial slurs thrown around.

Next, your comment here implies that my comments were non sequiturs, although they were clearly about the right of return. If you'll go back and read my first comment, you'll see that I wrote the following:

the binational state would keep both laws of return, ensuring that all Palestinian refugees could come back and/or be compensated and that all persecuted Jews could find a home in Israel/Palestine.

Honestly, I don't blame Nizo for not appreciating how you handled the conversation. I don't appreciate it either, and that's why I told you that I wouldn't be reading your blog anymore.

Finally, whether you decide to take your blog down or not is up to you -- and frankly of little concern to me, because, like I said, I'm done with it. However, if you like writing it, it'd be unfortunate to stop doing so because of a difference of opinion. But that's obviously your call.

Anonymous said...

Israeli NGOs, like the Israeli state, often avoid certain human rights issues due to a common understanding about "Iraeliness". Consequently, Lirun and his cohorts will simply not touch or just skirt issues like the rights of Palestinian Refugees (Law of Return, hint hint), and they thereby severely limit the possibilities for activism in Israel.

Despite Lirun's disposition as a "peace loving" Israeli, he can't fathom how his very logic and perceptions are no different than Israeli state interests, despite his claims otherwise.

In any case, so long as there are Israelis pushing to redefine Israel by highlighting its democratic as opposed to its Jewish character, then there's a least a bit of hope for true reconciliation and peace.

Yet, when peace-pushing Israelis like Lirun think that demanding Palestinian refugees to pledge service to Israel as a qualification for citizenship is a necessary good thing, then we know how depressingly existential the entire situation is..

-km

NIZ said...

I was reading Lirun's posts...
People who surf together
can live together my ass!! This guy is amazing...he would love to surf
with them, but when it comes to real concessions the right and the
left meet in Israel.

LaoTzu said if he
would give an advice to leaders, he would say (know when to stop!
Don't be with out grace...know that enough is enough...there will
always be enough!!) But, I guess the Israelis have to experience
that. Their dependence on brutal force will eventually destroy the
very essence of their society. A system based on racial discrimination
will eventually crumble. I was thinking that even if the Israelis were
able to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian territories, this will not
solve the bigger problem with Arab and Muslim region. This region
might be subjugated today, but they are still 1 billion people. Israel
cannot hold itself forever...a decision on a population level has to
be made "Do we want to live here or not?" If they want to live here,
then they have to be part of this region, not just a tool for foreign
interference and power. It's the complete tragic irony! The jews who
lived under Islamic law where better off than that of Europe (Jews
were discriminated against but their situation was better than
christians here and was better than their situation in Europe). Jewish
European intellectuals used to look at Islamic rule as a haven in
comparison with European rule...it's these same people who got
discriminated against in Europe for being Semites come back to oppress
their brethren as European colonists. Isn't it the absurd result of
5000 year of diaspora. It's as if the Israelis haven't got to terms
with their identity and roots as being Semite!
As for the palestinians, they are learning their lessons
silently...and like the jews after the holocaust came to understand
that only force and power (be it financial or military) is the
guarantee against complete annihilation and that only their fists will
guarantee them a place under the sun. So it's violence that counts
eventually and not UN resolutions or international tribunals.
As soon as Israel comes to understand, that the un-educated peasants
whom they kicked in 1948 are not as fools as they think and are like
them humans who have their dreams and rights, will it be able to move
forward and establish it self as a democratic state. As for the time
being, the wrong doings and systematic violence being exerted on
palestinians in this system will only complicate the situation further
more...and the memory of these people will haunt -not just the Israeli
society- but that of the Jewish consciousness for years to come!!!
Furthermore, if they think the Arabs will forget, they are dreaming,
because we all know it's not happening...the racist perspective that
Arabs understand force, will eventually fulfill itself where by the
Arabs losing hope in a peaceful compromise and having nothing to
lose more...will have every reason to fight!!
In both cases, I think this racist arrogant Israeli perspective that
refuses just resolution will lead either to an ethnic cleansing of
Palestinians or another human disaster which is the annihilation of
Israel (fulfilling their fear). While they are in power now, they
think that peace is not in their interest because Arabs will get what
they give them...but it's severely short sighted. Time will judge!

Saturday, November 03, 2007

Debating the one state solution

I've been debating, if you can call it that, some Israelis and a Palestinian about my firmly held belief in a one state solution

One of the Israelis has already called me an idiot and all Arabs monkeys. I highly recommend skipping his replies and reading Lirun's and Nizo's.

UPDATE: I've been locked out of the thread. So much for for an honest and respectable exchange of ideas. The exchanges I've had with Israelis in the blogosphere have left me more depressed than anything else.

4 comments:

Lirun said...

dude.. what a drama queen.. you werent locked out of the thread - it was closed.. as much for your comments as for nobody's..

the post was about the right of return and yet all you could do was preach your dogma on a one state solution..

as you do every single time you comment about anything..

think south park for a moment and lets create a skit:

"oh hi seanny how are you?"

"oh id be better if there was a one state solution in israstine.."

"yeah but seanny how are you feeling mate.. remember my question?"

"what question?!!? there is no question? you are racist!!! arabs and jews are one!! are you saying i cant follow your questions?? you are antidemocratic and denying me my right to diverge from every topic you raise - including my well being.. which mind you would be soo much better if there was a one state solution in israstine.."

"seanny buddy.. chum.. im trying to talk to you.. if you wont have the discussion there is no point.."

"lirun you're a dangerous surfy loser who hides behind sneaky messages.. whateverrrrrrr"

quite a discussion mate..

would have been fascinated to hear your thoughts on the relevance of the right of return with respect as part of a discussion.. really digging down into the essence.. but instead you threw accusations left right and centre.. ignored all attempts to collate responses to your full spectrum sling and came back with more..

my blog wasnt created for that..

nizo didnt like my handling of the situation and has now left the blog..

and i think im done for a while..

the deliberation now is whether to leave it online or delete it entirely..

cant decide..

your quite an inspiration man.. hope you dont have aspirations in diplomacy..

:)

take care

wish you well

sean said...

First things first: concerning drama, I'm not quite sure if you're supposed to be the pot or the kettle here, Lirun. Regardless, I can say that time and time again, the responses I get from you and other ostensibly peace-minded Israelis (putting aside entirely the outright racist rhetoric from your right-wing compatriots) have completely depressed me.

A good friend of mine here often does conflict resolution training sessions with Israeli NGO types, and the stories he brings back are very similar to my experiences, which are not promising.

In any case, I think if you'll look back at my comments, you'll see that I never once called you anything, much less "sneaky" or a "loser." I did, however, describe you as "well-meaning," even if I do find the idea of making an Arab's citizenship in Israel contingent on pledging allegiance to a Jewish state repugnant and racist. (This has nothing to do with treason, and is not nor should be practiced in any democratic nation worthy of that designation.) Again, I think you'll see that in that thread, if anyone was being called names, it was me: Arab monkey and idiot (times two) to quote your charming compatriots. And again, not once did you tell any Israelis on your blog that you didn't want racial slurs thrown around.

Next, your comment here implies that my comments were non sequiturs, although they were clearly about the right of return. If you'll go back and read my first comment, you'll see that I wrote the following:

the binational state would keep both laws of return, ensuring that all Palestinian refugees could come back and/or be compensated and that all persecuted Jews could find a home in Israel/Palestine.

Honestly, I don't blame Nizo for not appreciating how you handled the conversation. I don't appreciate it either, and that's why I told you that I wouldn't be reading your blog anymore.

Finally, whether you decide to take your blog down or not is up to you -- and frankly of little concern to me, because, like I said, I'm done with it. However, if you like writing it, it'd be unfortunate to stop doing so because of a difference of opinion. But that's obviously your call.

Anonymous said...

Israeli NGOs, like the Israeli state, often avoid certain human rights issues due to a common understanding about "Iraeliness". Consequently, Lirun and his cohorts will simply not touch or just skirt issues like the rights of Palestinian Refugees (Law of Return, hint hint), and they thereby severely limit the possibilities for activism in Israel.

Despite Lirun's disposition as a "peace loving" Israeli, he can't fathom how his very logic and perceptions are no different than Israeli state interests, despite his claims otherwise.

In any case, so long as there are Israelis pushing to redefine Israel by highlighting its democratic as opposed to its Jewish character, then there's a least a bit of hope for true reconciliation and peace.

Yet, when peace-pushing Israelis like Lirun think that demanding Palestinian refugees to pledge service to Israel as a qualification for citizenship is a necessary good thing, then we know how depressingly existential the entire situation is..

-km

NIZ said...

I was reading Lirun's posts...
People who surf together
can live together my ass!! This guy is amazing...he would love to surf
with them, but when it comes to real concessions the right and the
left meet in Israel.

LaoTzu said if he
would give an advice to leaders, he would say (know when to stop!
Don't be with out grace...know that enough is enough...there will
always be enough!!) But, I guess the Israelis have to experience
that. Their dependence on brutal force will eventually destroy the
very essence of their society. A system based on racial discrimination
will eventually crumble. I was thinking that even if the Israelis were
able to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian territories, this will not
solve the bigger problem with Arab and Muslim region. This region
might be subjugated today, but they are still 1 billion people. Israel
cannot hold itself forever...a decision on a population level has to
be made "Do we want to live here or not?" If they want to live here,
then they have to be part of this region, not just a tool for foreign
interference and power. It's the complete tragic irony! The jews who
lived under Islamic law where better off than that of Europe (Jews
were discriminated against but their situation was better than
christians here and was better than their situation in Europe). Jewish
European intellectuals used to look at Islamic rule as a haven in
comparison with European rule...it's these same people who got
discriminated against in Europe for being Semites come back to oppress
their brethren as European colonists. Isn't it the absurd result of
5000 year of diaspora. It's as if the Israelis haven't got to terms
with their identity and roots as being Semite!
As for the palestinians, they are learning their lessons
silently...and like the jews after the holocaust came to understand
that only force and power (be it financial or military) is the
guarantee against complete annihilation and that only their fists will
guarantee them a place under the sun. So it's violence that counts
eventually and not UN resolutions or international tribunals.
As soon as Israel comes to understand, that the un-educated peasants
whom they kicked in 1948 are not as fools as they think and are like
them humans who have their dreams and rights, will it be able to move
forward and establish it self as a democratic state. As for the time
being, the wrong doings and systematic violence being exerted on
palestinians in this system will only complicate the situation further
more...and the memory of these people will haunt -not just the Israeli
society- but that of the Jewish consciousness for years to come!!!
Furthermore, if they think the Arabs will forget, they are dreaming,
because we all know it's not happening...the racist perspective that
Arabs understand force, will eventually fulfill itself where by the
Arabs losing hope in a peaceful compromise and having nothing to
lose more...will have every reason to fight!!
In both cases, I think this racist arrogant Israeli perspective that
refuses just resolution will lead either to an ethnic cleansing of
Palestinians or another human disaster which is the annihilation of
Israel (fulfilling their fear). While they are in power now, they
think that peace is not in their interest because Arabs will get what
they give them...but it's severely short sighted. Time will judge!